03/10/1998 01:10 PM House RES

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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled

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HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE March 10, 1998 1:10 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Bill Hudson, Co-Chairman Representative Scott Ogan, Co-Chairman Representative Beverly Masek, Vice Chair Representative Ramona Barnes Representative Fred Dyson Representative Joe Green Representative William K. (Bill) Williams Representative Irene Nicholia Representative Reggie Joule MEMBERS ABSENT All members present COMMITTEE CALENDAR HOUSE BILL NO. 274 "An Act relating to the qualifications of the members of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission; and providing for an effective date." - HEARD AND HELD; ASSIGNED TO SUBCOMMITTEE * HOUSE BILL NO. 364 "An Act requiring nonresident hunters to be accompanied when hunting moose; and providing for an effective date." - HEARD AND HELD * HOUSE BILL NO. 414 "An Act relating to management of game and to the duties of the commissioner of fish and game." - SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD (* First public hearing) PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: HB 274 SHORT TITLE: OIL & GAS CONSERVATION COMMISSION SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) GREEN Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action 05/08/97 1656 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 05/08/97 1656 (H) O&G, RES 01/15/98 (H) O&G AT 10:00 AM CAPITOL 124

01/15/98 (H) MINUTE(O&G)

01/22/98 (H) O&G AT 11:00 AM CAPITOL 124

01/22/98 (H) MINUTE(O&G) 02/05/98 (H) O&G AT 10:00 AM CAPITOL 124 02/05/98 (H) MINUTE(O&G) 02/12/98 (H) O&G AT 11:00 AM CAPITOL 124 02/12/98 (H) MINUTE(O&G) 02/20/98 2382 (H) O&G RPT CS(O&G) 3DP 4NR 02/20/98 2383 (H) DP: BUNDE, HODGINS, ROKEBERG; 02/20/98 2383 (H) NR: KEMPLEN, RYAN, OGAN, BRICE 02/20/98 2383 (H) ZERO FISCAL NOTE (H.O&G) 02/20/98 2383 (H) REFERRED TO RES 03/10/98 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124 BILL: HB 364 SHORT TITLE: GUIDES FOR NONRESIDENT MOOSE HUNTERS SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVES(S) IVAN Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action

01/28/98 2154 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)

01/28/98 2154 (H) RESOURCES, FINANCE 03/10/98 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124 WITNESS REGISTER JEFF LOGAN, Legislative Assistant to Representative Joe Green Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 118 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-4931 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided sponsor statement for HB 274. DAVE NORTON 1208 "S" Street Anchorage, Alaska 99501 Telephone: (907) 276-2530 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 274. ROB BEACH (Address not provided) Telephone: (Not provided) POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 274. TOM WRIGHT, Legislative Assistant to Representative Ivan M. Ivan Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 418 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-4942 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided sponsor statement. HERMAN MORGAN, Chairman Central Kuskokwim Fish and Game Advisory Committee (Address not provided) Telephone: (907) 675-4393 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in favor of HB 364. NANCY HILLSTRAND P.O. Box 170 Homer, Alaska 99603 Telephone: (907) 235-3877 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in favor of HB 364. WAYNE REGELIN, Director Division of Wildlife Conservation Department of Fish and Game P.O. Box 25526 Juneau, Alaska 99802-5526 Telephone: (907) 465-4190 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony in opposition to HB 364. ROB HOLT, Representative Alaska Professional Hunters Association P.O. Box 489 Talkeetna, Alaska 99676 Telephone: (907) 733-2723 POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 364. ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 98-31, SIDE A - ONLY Number 0001 CO-CHAIRMAN SCOTT OGAN called the House Resources Standing Committee meeting to order at 1:10 p.m. Members present at the call to order were Representatives Ogan, Masek, Barnes, Dyson, and Green. Representatives Joule, Williams, Nicholia and Hudson arrived at 1:11 p.m., 1:15 p.m., 1:16 p.m., and 1:17 p.m., respectively. HB 274 - OIL & GAS CONSERVATION COMMISSION CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the first order of business was House Bill Number 274, "An Act relating to the qualifications of the members of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission; and providing for an effective date." Number 0266 JEFF LOGAN, Legislative Assistant to Representative Joe Green, Alaska State Legislature, stated the people of Alaska are blessed with a number of resources available to them one of which is hydrocarbons. There is a great demand worldwide for them for transportation uses. The state has entered into agreements with companies that produce these hydrocarbons, a very sophisticated and technical process, and in order to have a trust relationship with the companies, the state needs to understand what they are telling it about the resources. The responsibility rests with the legislature. "You're in a trust relationship with the people of Alaska to manage their resources. You have collectively delegated that responsibility to a commission that you have statutorily created and have created also a process to select members of the commission." It is important, therefore, that the legislature select someone who is qualified to perform on its behalf and establish those qualifications. Since statehood every governor has seen fit to include on the commission a petroleum engineer. The current Governor has not seen fit to do so, however. House Bill 274 would clarify the requirements to serve on the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission (AOGCC) by including a petroleum engineer. There is a proposed committee substitute dated 2/20/98. The change is on page 2, line 12, "and completes university or industry training". Number 1119 MR. LOGAN explained Section 1 of the proposed committee substitute would allow the governor to ask professional or industry representatives to solicit recommendations for the appointment of a commissioner. It would not require an obligation to appoint or the legislature to confirm any recommendation. It would simply allow the governor to ask those who do this type of work who might be qualified. Number 1356 MR. LOGAN explained Section 2 of the proposed committee substitute would establish the qualifications of the members. One member "shall" be a petroleum engineer. There are two ways to be considered a petroleum engineer - to hold a certificate of registration as an engineer under AS 08.48 and to have earned a degree in another field of engineering with at least 10 years of professional subsurface experience in the oil and gas industry in drilling, well operations, reservoir engineering, or a combination thereof, and to have taken university or industry classes specific to the problems encountered and methods of drilling, production, reservoir engineering, fluid flow through subsurface formation, and hydrocarbon transportation. There are several ways to get this additional training. There is a group called the Society of Petroleum Engineers, an international organization that sets the standards of petroleum engineering. He has spoken with the director of education and according to him the society has short courses, technical programs and other educational seminars to teach people about petroleum engineering. The society is preparing to apply for certification to the International Association of Continuing Education and Training, a group that sets standards in criteria for this type of training. There is also a group called the Petroleum Technology Transfer Council, a group that holds classes, short courses, seminars, and programs to teach people about technology in the petroleum field. There is also the International Association of Drilling Contractors. There are at least three organizations in addition to the companies themselves that could teach people. The rest of the bill would set the standards for the petroleum geologist and the public member of the commission which have not really been a problem. Number 2211 REPRESENTATIVE RAMONA BARNES stated the first section of the bill does not need to be there - "Before making an appointment, the governor may solicit the recommendations of professional or industry representatives for appointment of a commissioner." Any governor does that now. There is no reason for it to be in law. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES further stated she would like to know under section 2 of the bill how many people in Alaska would meet the qualifications. REPRESENTATIVE BARNES further stated she would like to know why the qualifications for the geologist need to be changed. She is not aware of any controversy surrounding his/her qualifications. TAPE 98-32, SIDE A Number 0059 MR. LOGAN stated, in reference to the language in Section 1, members from the oil and gas industry have suggested similar language. And yes the governor can do that now. Number 0125 REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN stated the governor has the prerogative to go wherever in the state and ask whoever. It has not happened currently, however. He has suggested a petroleum engineer, but one can not be found. According to the industry, they are available, it is just a matter of asking. The language just reemphasizes the fact that the governor has a place to go to find qualified personnel. Number 0200 MR. LOGAN stated, in response to how many people would meet the requirements under Section 2, the Department of Labor has found that there were about 579 petroleum engineers employed in the state during 1996. Yet, there were only about 35 registered petroleum engineers. Therefore, under (A) of the proposed committee substitute there should be around 35 who qualify; and under (B) of the proposed committee substitute there should be around 579 who qualify, if they have had the training. Number 0346 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated the fiscal note from the Department of Administration says that the pool of engineers would shrink to 25 when the degree requirements contained in the bill are taken into consideration. Number 0379 MR. LOGAN replied he would like some time to investigate that himself. "I don't see how broadening the scope of qualifications lowers the number of people who would qualify." Number 0407 MR. LOGAN stated, in response to the qualifications of the geologist, there has not been a problem in the past, but there has not been a problem with the petroleum seat either. It is thought that it would be good to clarify the legislature's intent in filling the position. Number 0452 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated, in response to Representative Barnes' question of the engineer, part may be due to the version of the bill and the fiscal note. The bill is dated 2/20/98, and the fiscal note is dated 2/4/98. The significant change of broadening the qualifications in the bill have not been considered in the fiscal note. The fiscal note would still be zero, but the analysis of the pool shrinking to 25 would drop off entirely. The pool now has been expanded fifteen fold. It was one of the reasons why it was rewritten. Number 0501 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN noted he is concerned about the pool expanding fifteen fold because the AOGCC is probably the most important commission in the state. It has police and adjudicatory powers over issues of the North Slope. "I'm concerned that expanding the pool that much, we may not have the best qualified help." Number 0545 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated one of the reasons that he is willing to make this concession is to allow for others to qualify from other disciplines, chemical and mechanical engineering, for example. It is not uncommon in the oil industry to select a career course that would put a person in the drilling department even though he is not in that particular education discipline. He agrees with the additional qualifications because of the 10 years of professional subsurface experience and additional courses requirement. Number 0635 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Representative Green whether the person who currently holds the seat would qualify under the criteria. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN replied no he would not qualify under the new criteria. He does not have 10 years of subsurface experience. Number 0647 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated, in response to the geology portion, since statehood there has not been a problem with the petroleum engineer or geologist seats. They have always been occupied by people from those disciplines. Currently, there is a geologist, but two of the three have been replaced, and there is concern that the third one might be replaced. If the Governor's propensity continues by not seeking qualified and technical personnel, there is concern there would not be any petroleum engineer or geologist which is what the bill is trying to avoid. This is one of the most critical commissions in the state safety wise. Number 0741 DAVE NORTON testified via teleconference in Valdez. He is not in favor of the bill. It relaxes the requirement that the position should be held by a professional engineer. It is important that the position be a professional engineer because of the public trust implicit in the licensing of engineers in the state. The bill also narrows the requirements to people with experience in subsurface issues when the commission and the oil patch in general is much broader. It is not good public policy to make it an exclusive requirement. It would exclude a lot of people who are professional engineers with a lot of experience in the oil patch with a big picture view of the issues related to resource development. He has submitted a letter to the committee dated March 9, 1998 that goes into more detail. Number 1028 REPRESENTATIVE BILL WILLIAMS asked Mr. Norton, in response to his comments on the bill taking away experience requirements, how does the 10-year experience apply. Number 1066 MR. NORTON replied the bill is detailed in a very narrow area of the commission's purview. It focuses entirely on subsurface issues when the purview of the commission is much more than that. Number 1116 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Norton whether he is familiar with the two statutory requirements of the AOGCC. MR. NORTON replied, "Yes." REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Norton what are they. MR. NORTON replied they are to maximize resource recovery and prevent waste. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated it is actually the prevention of waste and protection of correlative rights. They require somebody who is very knowledgeable of down-hole operations, more so than the fact that it has police power to enforce full unitization. Number 1198 MR. NORTON replied that he is not suggesting that somebody with down-hole experience is not qualified. Actually, there are three main areas of responsibility of the commission: prevention of waste, maximization of recovery, and protection of correlative rights. He agrees down-hole experience is important, but it is not an "end all and be all." When he was on the commission, the most important hearing was on the unitization of oil and gas issues on the North Slope in terms of issues related to the joint use of surface and subsurface facilities. A reservoir specialist and facility engineer would have been more comfortable in that setting. In addition, most reservoir and petroleum engineers that deal with drilling are currently or have been employees of one of the big oil companies - Exxon, Arco or BP. They probably have a conflict of interest or at least a bias toward one company. Number 1323 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated until the current Governor took office this was not the case. The petroleum engineer and geologist were not former employees of any of the major companies. From 1972-1978 there was a former Mobile Oil Company engineer on the commission, but other than that the position has not come from any of the local operations. Number 1353 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated former Representative Chat Chatterton held the position on the commission for many, many years. When he was in the legislature somebody else served, and then he was reappointed. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated he was not on the commission before serving in the legislature. Number 1379 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked for clarification from staff. Number 1395 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated he went on the commission two years after he left the legislature. He was not on the commission prior to that. It was Chat Chatterton who developed the commission through the legislature during the Hammond Administration. He patterned it after the Texas Railroad Commission. Number 1427 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES asked Representative Green what was Chat Chatterton's function in the oil and gas industry prior to becoming a member of the legislature. Number 1438 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN replied he worked for an oil company. He did work for an oil company and did become a commissioner. The others that worked with oil companies were from ones that do not operate here. Number 1500 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN entertained a motion to adopt the proposed committee substitute dated 2/20/98. Number 1518 CO-CHAIRMAN BILL HUDSON made a motion to adopt proposed committee substitute for HB 274 dated 2/20/98 for official action. There being no objection, it was before the committee. Number 1552 ROB BEACH testified via teleconference in Fairbanks. He wondered where the governor is for something so important. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated the Governor does not routinely attend the House Resources hearings. MR. BEACH stated he is repulsed by the Judiciary and House Resources committees because they thought the Natives could not handle fish and game very well. We were offered firefighting and now we are not a concern in oil development. The Governor is not there and neither is oil. If this is the type of repercussions a person receives to be acknowledged in the state when having fair and legitimate offerings on positions, he wondered whether the legislature is electing the conservation.... Number 1697 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called for a brief at ease at 1:56 p.m. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called the meeting back to order at 1:57 p.m. Number 1699 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN referred to page 2, line 12 of the work draft, "and completes university or industry training", and asked whether there is industry training, or is it on-the-job training. Number 1742 MR. LOGAN replied training is conducted by the Society of Petroleum Engineers, the International Association of Drilling Contractors, and the Petroleum Technology Transfer Council. They conduct, sponsor, and hold short courses, seminars, and educational programs. The International Association of Continuing Education and Training sets the criteria for certification. The Society of Petroleum Engineers is applying for certification within the next few months. Number 1774 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated there is no guarantee that the Society of Petroleum Engineers will be certified. Number 1782 MR. LOGAN replied true there is no guarantee. However, the Society of Petroleum Engineers is the highest level of training in regards to petroleum subsurface oil and gas matters. It is recognized worldwide as the best training. The bill requires other training as well, not just from the Society of Petroleum Engineers. The 10 years of professional subsurface experience includes hours and hours of training sponsored by the company itself through PDH (professional development hours) in order to progress in a field. Number 1843 REPRESENTATIVE IRENE NICHOLIA stated that there has been a lot of talk about declining revenues and declining prices of oil, and every time there is talk of declines it means cutbacks in employees. The Department of Law has indicated that there is a limited number of petroleum engineers with Alaskan addresses. She wondered, therefore, how that would impact the future pool of petroleum engineers in Alaska. Number 1885 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN replied the history of the oil industry has been up and down primarily related to world or local events that affect prices. They are profit making organizations. They do not operate like the government. When their expenditures exceed their income, they downsize. They just don't downsize in the technical fields, as a matter of fact, it is one of the last groups to go. In terms of the pool, there will always be hundreds of people that would qualify under this scenario. Far more than in the older days when one had to be a registered petroleum engineer. Number 1946 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA stated the fiscal note says that the pool of engineers shrinks to 25 with the degree requirements. she asked Representative Green whether the proposed committee substitute would change the number. Number 1956 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN replied under (A) of the proposed committee substitute his information says the pool is closer to 35. But, the proposed committee substitute says "or" to also include (B) which requires 10 years of down-hole experience, and to have taken technical courses within the industry or company that applies towards down-hole experience. Number 1988 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA stated there is never a guarantee that the pool of 25 would want to participate on the commission. Number 2008 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated Representative Nicholia is referring to (A) - the small pool. He is referring to (A) or (B) - a much larger pool. A downsize would not adversely affect the larger pool. Number 2038 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated he has heard enough different opinions to cause some concern. He put the proposed committee substitute dated 2/20/98 into a subcommittee and assigned Representatives Barnes, Green and Joule to the subcommittee. Number 2070 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Co-Chairman Ogan to be excused from the subcommittee because of his possible bias. Number 2074 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied certainly he could accommodate that. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Representative Williams whether he would be kind enough to serve on the subcommittee. Number 2114 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS replied he would serve on the subcommittee. HB 364 - GUIDES FOR NONRESIDENT MOOSE HUNTERS CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the next order of business was House Bill Number 364, "An Act requiring nonresident hunters to be accompanied when hunting moose; and providing for an effective date." Number 2138 TOM WRIGHT, Legislative Assistant to Representative Ivan M. Ivan, Alaska State Legislature, explained Representative Ivan is ill today otherwise he would be here today. He read the following sponsor statement: "The purpose of the bill is to require nonresident hunters to be accompanied in the field by a registered guide while hunting moose. The present moose antler restrictions for nonresident hunters - a 50 inch minimum in most game management units - there are major conservation reasons for this guide requirement." MR. WRITE said there is more to the sponsor statement. It primarily comes from a letter written by Peter Shepherd. He could continue to read it or answer any questions of the committee members. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced he would open the meeting up to the teleconference network. Number 2184 HERMAN MORGAN, Chairman, Central Kuskokwim Fish and Game Advisory Committee, testified via teleconference in Aniak. He has been involved with the committee for about 15 years, as chairman for 5 years. He is strongly in favor of the bill and so is the committee. In fact, it recently put a proposal to the Board of Game similar to the bill because of the growth of nonresident hunters in the area, and the phenomenal amount of waste by them with no one being held responsible. "If you or I did something like that, we'd be in big trouble. But these people are just getting away with it either through ignorance, inexperience, or just plain lack of caring." If they were accompanied by an experienced guide who knows how to take care of the meat, a lot of the waste could be stopped. Right now, air transporters dump as many hunters as they can in one area, and when it is wiped out they move to another area. "I though we were suppose to operate under the principle of sustained yield." Number 2271 REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA asked Mr. Morgan how many guides are there in the Aniak area. Number 2288 MR. MORGAN replied he is not sure. There are a lot that come from the Lower Forty-Eight during the moose season. They advertise on the Internet and it is getting out of hand. There are too many and the moose should be taken care of. The wolves are even becoming a problem. Number 2307 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Morgan whether there has been a problem with sub-legal moose being left in the field in the Aniak area. Number 2312 MR. MORGAN replied we have heard stories about guys shooting a sub- legal moose and leaving it. They do not understand how to take care of the meat or what it takes. If there was an experienced guide with them, it would stop a lot of this. Number 2330 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated there are problems in his area as well. There is a problem with the new antler restrictions. Number 2351 MR. MORGAN said there is such new technology that it is easy to spot a moose from a plane. If it is not regulated it will hurt the resource when a lot depend on it to feed their families. "Think how it makes us feel to see the meat go to waste," he said. Number 2379 REPRESENTATIVE BEVERLY MASEK asked Mr. Morgan how long has he been noticing the problem. Number 2390 MR. MORGAN replied this has been going on for quite a while. Before the "meat-and-bone" rule, a lot of the meat was being left out in the field. The hunters would come back to the village with just the horns and a little bag of meat. Their excuse was that a bear got the meat. Number 2405 REPRESENTATIVE MASEK stated it seems that a lot of the problems are because of the air carriers that just drop off the hunters then take off again. Number 2420 MR. MORGAN stated the bill would sure help the problem. He asked the committee members to put aside their differences. Number 2429 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated we are trying to work together on this problem and other problems. Hopefully, this bill would be a step in the right direction to help. Number 2439 NANCY HILLSTRAND testified via teleconference in Homer. She is in support of HB 364. The resources can't withstand what is going on in the woods right now. There is a wanton waste problem. She agrees with the sponsor statement, and hopes that the bill is passed. It will help the moose population. Number 2493 WAYNE REGELIN, Director, Division of Wildlife Conservation, Department of Fish and Game, testified in Juneau. TAPE 98-32, SIDE B Number 0000 MR. REGELIN continued. One of the main reasons that people are proposing the bill is to solve the problem of wanton waste. The department's opinion is that it will be very unlikely that the bill would have any noticeable impact on the wanton waste of moose meat. The problem of wanton waste is not specific to moose or nonresidents. There are a lot of cases that involved wanton waste with other species and resident hunters. Each year about 30,000 residents hunt moose and 3,000 nonresidents hunt moose in Alaska. Of the 3,000 nonresident hunters, 25 percent hire a guide. If the bill passed and the number of nonresidents did not decline, only 7 percent of the moose hunters would be impacted. The small percentage of 7 percent would not have any affect on the wanton waste issue. The bill will have an impact on the state, however. In 1996, 2,947 nonresidents purchased moose tags and licenses that generated $1,429,000. Last year, the number increased to 3,479 generating $1,685,000. The money goes into the fish and wildlife fund for wildlife management. A nonresident hunting license costs $85, and a moose tag costs $400. The average cost of a guided moose hunt in Alaska is about $6,000. The cost for 75 percent of the nonresident moose hunters will significantly increase by thousands of dollars. A large number will not come to Alaska anymore. Hunters will go to other places like Canada. Based on the data when goats were added to the list of species that required a guide, there was a loss of 70 percent. The department would loose about $885,000 in revenue each year. The loss of the hunters would also have a significant impact on the economy. Based on a 1994 study, nonresident hunters that did not hire a guide spent an average of $3,517 while in the state which included transportation, fuel, food and lodging. In total, it factors about $5.5 million into the economy. MR. REGELIN further stated another concern is the legal challenge for bear, goat and sheet nonresident hunters to have a guide. The department has never been challenged, but based on the large number of federal lands there is concern. He does not mean to give the impression that the department is not concerned about wanton waste. The waste of even one animal is too much. There is nothing that hurts the image of hunting more than the waste of meat. The department follows up on any report of wanton waste, and issues citations, if warranted. The fine for the waste of meat is one of the highest on the books for fish and game violations - up to $5,000 a year and up to one year in jail. The typical fine is over $1,000 and almost always involves some jail time and the loss of hunting privileges in Alaska for several years. The department is trying other ideas to reduce or eliminate wanton waste. The Board of Game passed the "meat-on-the-bone" in Units 17 and 19 in an attempt to reduce wanton waste. It is having some beneficial effects. In addition, the nonresident hunters in Unit 19B last year as an experiment were required to take an orientation course on how to handle meat and view film on how to determine whether a bull moose has 50-inch antlers or not. If it is successful, the department will expand it into other areas where there are problems. The department is in the process of making a film on how to take care of meat in the field and working with the transport industry to deliver the course before flying the hunters out to the field. The department is also trying to make it easier for people to donate their meat in the villages. The passage of HB 364 does not really get at the problem of wanton waste. Number 0312 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Regelin whether it is a huge problem with a significant portion of the moose regulations in terms of antler restrictions. He has been a moose hunter for 20 years and has hunted with experienced guides, and they have argued about the legality of the animal that they are looking at in terms of its antlers (brow tines). Number 0412 MR. REGELIN replied about 50 percent of the state has antler restrictions on a bull moose. The most common is a spike fork or 50 inches and bigger. It was started about six years ago. In some places it has worked really well, and in other places it has not worked well at all. On the Kenai Peninsula most hunters have liked it. In the Mat-Su Valley and Unit 13 it has not worked very well due to the antler configuration. There is a task force of biologists and the chairs of the advisory committees in the Mat-Su area working on the issue now. The reasons for doing this were because in some areas the bull were being over harvested causing a distorted bull-cow ratio influencing the productivity of the herds. It was a way to allow for longer seasons in the field, take a trophy bull, take a small-meat bull, and let the middle-aged moose grow and bread. It has worked very well in restoring the bull-cow ratios, but in certain areas (Units 13 and 14) it is still a problem. Number 0507 REPRESENTATIVE MASEK asked Mr. Regelin whether the state would be compensated for land-user fees that are not now collectible from drop-off hunts. Number 0538 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated the guides currently have to go through the (DNR) Department of Natural Resources for land-use fees for camps. There would probably be an increase in the amount of those activities. He asked Mr. Regelin whether he has looked at the difference. Number 0557 MR. REGELIN replied he has not looked at that. He knows that DNR has the ability to charge fees, but he is not sure whether it is. If it is, the fees are not going back to the fish and game fund. The vast majority of guiding is on federal lands - 60 percent. He could try to figure out the amount that would go back into the state treasury. Number 0587 REPRESENTATIVE MASEK stated guided hunts would reduce the number of nonresidents harvesting moose in direct competition with local hunters. In addition, if the bill was to pass, hunting pressures would be spread throughout the state, not just in one area. The guides could take them out to different areas. Number 0633 MR. REGELIN stated it would certainly reduce the number of nonresident moose hunters in Alaska. There would be a loss of 1,800 nonresident moose hunters scattered throughout the state. There would be less competition, but in some areas such as Aniak almost all of the local residents hunt along the rivers by boats, while 85 percent that do not live in the area hunt by aircraft. Therefore, there is a natural method of reducing that type of competition according to statistical information from Units 17 and 19. Number 0718 REPRESENTATIVE MASEK stated she disagrees with Mr. Regelin in terms of wanton waste. Right now, the problem is with unaccompanied nonresidents that hunt moose. The moose is so huge that it is hard to care and preserve the meat. A guide could help them get the moose out and care for it. Mr. Regelin's points are not really falling into place. She finds it hard to believe some of his facts. Number 0770 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS agreed with Representative Masek. It is difficult to hear his arguments when experienced people are also having the same problem. He asked Mr. Regelin who is paying for the instructions and how much does it cost to produce a film. Number 0815 MR. REGELIN replied the department now provides written material to the transporters and guides, and a film on how to identify a 50- inch antler. The department is preparing a film now that will cost about $15,000 on how to take care of moose meat. The cost of the film on the 50-inch antler was probably in the $15,000 to $20,000 range. The department does the films itself so a lot of money is not spent. Number 0852 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS stated his arguments are still very weak. He recognized that the amount to produce a film is a one-time cost. He supports the bill because it talks about nonresident hunters. Number 0888 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated when adopting the list of animals to require a guide legally was related to the type of terrain, for example. She asked Mr. Regelin to speak to the legal reasons. She could not remember them all. Number 0922 MR. REGELIN stated he is concerned about adding moose to the list. The list currently contains grizzly bears, sheep and goats. The legislature has been extremely careful when adding species and to base it on the need of safety because it is a dangerous animal or very dangerous country. The legislature has been afraid of a court successfully challenging it because there is so much federal lands in the state to the point that it would not be able to require a guide for any species. If that was to happen, it would put a lot of guides out of business. The primary guiding industry in Alaska revolves around bear and sheep. It is a viable industry and necessary for a lot of people to be able to hunt. He reiterated 25 percent of the nonresidents hire a guide to hunt moose. A large part of the other portion comes to Alaska to hunt with friends or family. Number 1007 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated by-en-large the people who hunt with family members have to be closely related by blood for other wild species. She asked Mr. Regelin whether the terrain for the moose habitat generally speaking are of a non-dangerous nature. Number 1038 MR. REGELIN replied, "Correct." The state would be hard pressed to justify moose under the safety factor. In terms of grizzly bears, sheep or goats, one can hunt with close family members up to a second degree of kindred - dad, brother, uncle. Number 1068 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Regelin whether the conservation of the resource is a justifiable reason to require guided moose hunts simply because of the difficulty in judging the antler restrictions. Number 1113 MR. REGELIN replied he is not sure what a court of law would say. The department realizes that there are problems with the 50-inch rule. It is not just the nonresidents that have trouble. Number 1133 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated it would be appropriate to hold the bill over until there are some answers to the legal questions. Number 1146 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated it is not possible to say that one group of people leave meat un-salvaged any more than another group, otherwise there would be proof and they would be in jail. There are very strict laws on the books that relate to salvaging meat. Number 1185 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated that is a point that the sponsor needs to address. Number 1199 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS stated there is a lot of meat being left because of the 50-inch rack, yet there is no wanton waste. He is hearing conflicting stories. Number 1220 MR. REGELIN explained he said earlier that even one moose or one caribou wasted is too many. The department has no indication that wanton waste has increased. The department also thinks that some of the measures it is taking to reduce waste will continue to be effective. He believes there is a problem because in some villages that have had very little air traffic in the past such as Aniak are experiencing more traffic because of the Mulchatna herd. Number 1320 ROB HOLT, Representative, Alaska Professional Hunters Association, testified via teleconference in Mat-Su. We are at this point for moose because of the elimination of the Big Game Commercial Services Board. It was the state's best way to control the growing commercial service industry centered around big game hunting. It did a pretty good job of controlling the guides by putting them into a manageable scenario. When the board's sunset expired they were looking at the air taxis and transporters. The state lost the ability to control that group and now it is the fastest growing group. There are 23 proposals that deal with this issue in one form or another of the Board of Game. It is obvious that the residents put a very high value on moose. The moose deserve the same kind of consideration that bears, sheep and goats are under in terms of how the population is (indisc.--paper shuffling). It is a sensitive issue because there are many different angles. In addition, the revenue shortfall for the Department of Fish and Game should be looked at. He imaged that about one-half of the 1,800 nonresident hunters would probably go ahead and book a guided moose hunt in the short run. The number will probably not return, but it will not be significantly low. There should be a way to transfer the revenue shortfall if it would be that much of an impact on fish and game. Number 1546 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN said the state has a lawsuit to control the transporter group. When he served on the Big Game Commercial Services Board, it never tackled that group because it did not have the authority. They were not providing a hunting service; they were simply taxi cab drivers. They fell under the Interstate Commerce Clause. Number 1597 MR. HOLT stated when the board was designed it went from a guide to a big game commercial services board strictly for the reason to encompass everybody who provided a service for a big game hunter. Number 1624 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated Mr. Holt is correct. Licenses and stickers were issued to transporters. He is not sure if they have gone away, however. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked Mr. Holt whether he favors or opposes the bill. Number 1658 MR. HOLT replied he favors the bill in consideration of the people in the outlying areas that need some relief from what they see happening. Controlled use areas are not in the best interest of the average resident Alaskan who lives in an urban area and wants to go hunting. He should not suffer for the over zealous drop-off industry. Number 1719 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated there is very strong case law that supports being able to force people to use guides for safety. Incorporating moose into the same set of statutes is a foul of the United States Commerce Clause. She asked Mr. Holt to comment. Number 1765 MR. HOLT replied, if the state was to keep close track from now of which nonresidents gets hurt hunting, moose hunters would be included. It is an area with the most possible safety problems with the least amount of supervision and responsibility. It is just a guess, however, he could be wrong. The requirement of a nonresident hunter to hire a guide for bear, sheep and goat based upon safety, the state is telling them that it is looking out for their best interest. In the same law, the state has licensed a non-hunting housewife in Eagle River, for example, to be a guide for her nonresident relative. It does not happen a lot, but he has seen it in Kodiak with brown bear hunting. If the state is concerned about the validity of its law, it needs to look at requiring resident-relatives to provide an affidavit that says they have actually taken the species they are after with their nonresident relatives. Otherwise, what has the state done to provide for the safety of that person. Number 1930 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN responded the state has transferred the safety over to the relative. Number 1939 MR. HOLT replied in that respect it also weakens the ability to retain the law. Number 1965 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated that many legislators would not limit people from taking their relatives hunting and fishing. If the state cannot show a justifiable reason for putting moose under the guide area, eventually all of the guided areas will be lost to the United States Commerce Clause. Number 2001 MR. HOLT responded her point is very well taken. The state has always been very careful when approaching the issue for that exact reason. But something needs to be done to relieve the problems in the outlying areas. Number 2031 REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated there is no question that the problem needs to be addressed, but there are other more legitimate ways to do it, such as seasons and bag limits. If people are not getting their amount for sustenance in an area then there needs to be an earlier or later season so that they are not in competition for the same food source. Number 2084 CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated he would like to see something from the Legislative Legal Counsel Division concerning the application of the United States Commerce Clause. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN explained it has been requested already. Number 2112 REPRESENTATIVE MASEK asked Mr. Regelin his opinion on the impact of wanton waste of moose meat in terms of the transporters when their unaccompanied nonresident clients are not being held responsible for the environmental impact. The transporter industry is growing and making more money. Number 2287 MR. REGELIN replied, in general, overall there are a few big transporters taking advantage of the system. But most have been in business for a number of years. If they see that not enough of their clients are brining meat out of the fields, they work with the Department of Fish and Game and the Division of Fish and Wildlife Protection. It is important to realize that a great deal of resident moose hunters fly in too. They far out number the amount of nonresidents. The concerns of wanton waste can not be attributed to one group more than another group. Number 2401 REPRESENTATIVE MASEK stated she does not feel comfortable with Mr. Regelin's answers. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the bill will be held over, until there are answers from the Department of Public Safety - Division of Fish and Wildlife Protection and Department of Law. CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated, in reference to the subcommittee appointed for HB 274, he relieved Representative Williams and reappointed Representative Green. Sometimes it is not bad for people with agendas to get involved with things. ADJOURNMENT Number 2506 CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN adjourned the House Resources Standing Committee meeting at 3:04 p.m.

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